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Free Harvester for captured Neutral Refinery *solved*
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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject:  Free Harvester for captured Neutral Refinery *solved*
Subject description: alternative for oil derricks (idea by SuperJoe)
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Does anyone found a way to give the player that captured a neutral refinery a free harvester on a multiplayer map?
The problem is, i want the neutral harvester to wait/stop at the refinery, so it isn't eating up all the tiberium (espeecially problematic, since the Neutral house can't fill its silos, thus all the harvested tiberium is wasted).

I tried to place a harvester on the refinery docking point/cell, but
-the harvester always moves away and starts to harvest
-even when blocked by 3 objects on the refinery bib, the harvester doesn't changes the side to the player who captured the refinery.
-even when giving it the script order "Do this..." 0-Sleep, the harv is first moving away from the docking cell, before going into Sleep mode

Is there a way to order a harv to stay docked with a refinery? Something like an infinite unloading action.
Or can i give the player via triggers the harvester. (Change house is problematic, since i can't check the players house and then give it to the unit)

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Last edited by Lin Kuei Ominae on Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:24 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Krow
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The scripts in TS and RA2 haven't change much right? Make a script that has action 11,0 which is sleep like you've mentioned and then action 49,0, repeat until success. Might work, don't really know.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Doesn't work. Sad

Every script order after the "Do this..." Sleep command seems to be ignored. Even orders like Suicide or Flash are not done after the Sleep command.

Harvester also seem to be a special case, as they can still move even after a Sleep order.

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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ares's KillDriver logic uses Sticky to passivate all vehicles... Does Sticky exist in TS?

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sticky exists and works on everything, but these damn harvester.
In this case "Do this..." Sticky has the same effect as Sleep on the harvester. (btw, Sticky exists ever since TD Wink )

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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Even if you make the harvester stay still, it won't help as it must be docked in order to change sides when you capture the refinery.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Not really. IIRC you can give a harv a stop order on the docking cell, which still makes it switch the house when the ref is captured.
e.g. you also get the harv when it's just moving on the docking cell and isn't yet docked.

I thought it's a bit like the warfactory, where you get the unit inside the wf as well, even if the unit is about to leave the wf.
I thought the only condition is, the unit must be inside the building and completely surrounded by it. (that's why harvs don't change the owner on refineries with a 3x3 foundation)


However, even a constantly looped, "return to refinery" or "Unload" command doesn't work.

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

While trying to mess around with this, I came up with something interesting. Use the taskforce / script / teamtype / trigger to spawn in a unique harvester that has Storage=99999999 (whatever the max is). For the teamtype enable "Full". Now when it spawns on the map, it will directly proceed to unload the endless supply of tiberium. Once it docks it becomes part of the building, and can switch sides when you capture the building with an engineer. Also when the building is destroyed, the docked harvester dies. Give it Selectable=no and it can't ever be ordered to leave the refinery.

This actually leads to a capturable oil derrick, without any messy side effects (least I can't think of any right now). The problem would be to balance the rate at which you gain money. "Full" fills the harv with the default green tiberium, and it's Value might have to be adjusted. And you'd also need to tweak the rate at which harvesters unload tiberium. Not sure if the rate could be lowered alot and somehow balance it for normal harvesters.

Or maybe the refiny could be disabled / enabled for a short amount of time repeatedly with a trigger, so the income wouldn't be constant. Someone figure out a way to balance the income rate and you have oil derricks in TS (in a non messy way like my old method Smile )

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m7
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SuperJoe comes in with awesome ideas once more.

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EDIT: ok here's a much simpler way to do it:

- Replace the 3rd, unused tiberium (Aboreus) properties with Riparius properties.
- Change Riparius Value to 1 (or maybe 2 or 3).
- Change green tiberium in all maps to Aboreus.

Only problem would be to find a quick way to replace all the green tiberium in maps with Aboreus, cause doing it by hand would take way too much time and effort.

Also something funny I noticed, silos and refineries get filled really fast when you lower the value of Riparius. So you'd probably need to adjust their Storage accordingly. E.g. Riparius Value=1, Silo Storage=1500 (60 x 25).

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You can place as many oil derricks as you want with just one taskforce / script / team / trigger. You don't even need a waypoint for every oil derrick if they are close to each other. So this is a very clean and easy to implement method.

Btw was scared carryalls would ruin this, but after testing I can confirm they can't pick up harvesters that are currently unloading. If this method has no exploits I am genuinely surprised.

As for replacing Riparius in maps with Aboreus, would changing their order in rules.ini ([Tiberiums] list) work? Or messing with the overlays? Also what about the 4th tiberium type, could that be used as replacement for Riparius? Some mods might have 3 tiberium types so being able to use the weird 4th type for this would be good.

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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sounds like a major derail from the original issue. What if you place the HORV (unloaded harvester) vehicle at the refinery's entry/exit?

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm surprised that a Neutral unit can be spawned with full storage. Afaik it's completely impossible to have Neutral stuff start a map with filled storage. But i guess Neutral harvester are a different case than Neutral Silos/Refineries.

The oil derrick workaround is indeed very interesting. Thank you for this finding.
Enabling/disabling the oil derrick with a trigger could work. Especially if you give the derrick TogglePower=false. The player can't turn it on/off but the trigger can still override this.
Though i fear the harvester would undock once the derrick is turned off.

Another problem is, that the oil derrick would fill also all other player silos and refineries. Especially when using a cheap Riparius to control the credits flow of the derrick, this can be problematic. As it takes away storage capacity which might be better used for a full harvester load of blue tiberium.

I'm quite sure it doesn't work, but you could try giving the harv
HarvesterDumpRate=0
which is actually a global key (maybe it works local too).
Maybe DeployTime works here. (though i've never seen this key work in the first place)

@Crimsonum: When docked, the harvester isn't really changing into HORV, it only uses something like Image=HORV, without taking all the rules.ini settings of the HORV. The unit itself is never used ingame.
Thus i doubt that placing HORV would help. Because it would never switch back to the normal harvester.

I now made it this way
-the harv is blocked by 3 invisible dummy buildings
-once a unit comes close to the refinery, the dummy buildings are destroyed, and the harv is free and starts to harvest. Thus it isn't taking away all the tiberium from the beginning.

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RP
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Did you set Full for the team that gets spawned? I had the same thing when I had War Miners as reinforcements.
IIRC if you uncheck Full its storage will be empty.

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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:

@Crimsonum: When docked, the harvester isn't really changing into HORV, it only uses something like Image=HORV, without taking all the rules.ini settings of the HORV. The unit itself is never used ingame.
Thus i doubt that placing HORV would help. Because it would never switch back to the normal harvester.


So I assume the HORV entry is needed much like a dummy unit must have the cluster/split, second-phase weapons as its primary/secondary? Otherwise the game would IE if no unit used these "weapons".

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@RP: do you mean me or SuperJoe?
I haven't used triggers to create the harvester. They are placed directly on the map, thus empty.
SuperJoe created them via trigger and as he wrote with the Full option.

@Crimsonum: yep, pretty much like the weedguy hack, HORV is just there so the art is loaded.
But i guess it would even work without the rules.ini HORV unit and only the art.ini HORV section, because a unit art.ini section is loaded anyway.
WW might have really switched the unit in the beginning and then later reduced it to the art only, and the HORV unit is just an unused leftover. (maybe it caused problems with the targeting routines, which lost the harv when it switched to the different horv unit)

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The solution to the original problem is similar to the oil derrick thing. Create a taskforce with a harvester, a teamtype that has Full ticked off, and the following script:

1. Move to waypoint X (X = the docking point of the refinery)
2. Force facing (2)
3. Do this... (10 - Area Guard) (Finalsun incorrectly says this is 11).

Now have a trigger that spawns the harvester a few cells away from the refinery. The harvester drives to the refinery and then sits there doing nothing. Once you capture the refinery it becomes yours.

This next thing will even make it start unloading / harvesting automatically as soon as you capture the refinery / harv. Create a new trigger Ref Captured:

Owner: Neutral
Type: 0
Event: Destroyed by anything (triggers when refinery gets captured, with or without MultiEngineer on).
Actions: Destroy team (the harvester team you created above)

EDIT: Assign this trigger to the refinery (not needed for the harvester)

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RP
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Destroy team removes the taskforce's script, and makes them recruitable again.

If this is Action 5 (Destroys the specified team. Units in this team will be put into ‘guard’ mode and can be recruited again.).
You might want to attach the trigger of the 'destroy' trigger to the house changing trigger, so they can use the same unit.

I tell you about this Action with knowledge I have from FinalAlert 2, it could be that in TS the taskforce actually gets destroyed..

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RP wrote:
Destroy team removes the taskforce's script, and makes them recruitable again.


Yep, this is how it works. The unit is stuck doing area guard until neutral loses the refinery (it gets captured), then the harvester resumes normal harvesting. The harvester has also changed sides since it was conviniently placed at the docking point and had tiberium inside.


Btw good news for the oil derrick trick, AlexB helped me work out the final problem the logic had. Now you don't need to go around touching the green tiberium, with a little hack you can change what tiberium harvesters get filled with when you use "Full" on them. The only thing that needs some thought is silos getting filled with cheap (valued 1-5) tiberium. Minor problem though. I will post a full tutorial on this later.

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Nordos
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, you can make the refinery having a LOT of storage. True, after the 'oil derrick' gets destroyed, you will loose (nearly) all the money, but that could be seen as a 'feature'.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You are Super Joe, thanks. It works now. Smile

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

maybe this could now go in the Tutorial Vault?

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RP
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SMIFFGIG wrote:
maybe this could now go in the Tutorial Vault?


SuperJoe wrote:
Minor problem though. I will post a full tutorial on this later.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

SMIFFGIG wrote:
maybe this could now go in the Tutorial Vault?

there is no mapping tutorials forum where something small like the capturable neutral ref+harv could go.

The oil derrick one will be done later by SuperJoe. Wink

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just a few additions to this method.

To make absolutely sure the harvester turns to face the right direction (backside towards the refinery), use the following script:

1. Move to waypoint X (X = the docking point of the refinery)
2. Guard area (timer ticks) (2)
3. Force facing (2)
4. Guard area (timer ticks) (2)
5. Do this... (10 - Area Guard) (Finalsun incorrectly says this is 11).

In a map where the spawning waypoint was not directly in line with the refinery the neutral harvester entered area guard mode before it had turned completely to face south-east. This script will ensure it will always face the right direction.


Another thing to note is that if you have more than one of these refinery + harvester combos in a map, you should create seperate taskforces for each harvester. Then give each of them a unique Group value. Each team needs a unique Group value as well. So the 1st harvester taskforce / team has Group=1, and so on.

This is needed because otherwise the neutral AI might recruit the harvesters for the other harvester teams. At least this happened to me in a map I was testing this on. When I captured the refinery, the harvester didn't change sides, it simply tried to dock into another neutral owned refinery. Giving each taskforce / team unique Group values stopped this from happening.


Btw this refinery / harvester thing is a fairly nice alternative to Oil Derricks as LKO mentioned. You could make the special refinery Unsellable=yes and BaseNormal=no. This would prevent the 1st player from simply selling it if another player ever tried to capture it. BaseNormal=no stops it from being used to expand your base.

Would probably be a good idea to create a unique harvester for these refineries as well, that has this special refinery listed 1st in the Dock= key. The normal harvesters (GDI, Nod, etc) should probably have this refinery listed last in the Dock= key. This will make sure the special harvesters prefer to unload at the special refineries, while the GDI / Nod harvesters wouldn't start to prefer driving all the way to the special refinery from your base.

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Zero18
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm still struggling with it.

It seems that harvester is ignoring the script that is suppose to order harvester to do what script tells them. It is same as what SuperJoe posted.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Without more info or uploading the map, there is no way to tell the issue.

I used that technique on 2 maps already without any problems.

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Zero18
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I created a taskforce with harvester (group -1)


Next, script for harvester to follow.


It is
1) Move to Waypoint (ID 10)
2) Do this: Guard
3) Force Facing (2)
4) Do this: Guard
5) Do this: Area Guard

Third...


Then


Event is number 28 (Destroy by anything, not infiltrate)
Action is number 5 (Destroy Team)

Then I connect the trigger to the Refinery that I want.


Here is what happens ingame


It didn't even move at all, it didnt follow waypoint (ID 10) at all. it just sit there. (Of course if you wonder why it didnt moved at all is because I removed the tiberium off from the map at beginning of the game)

Help?

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Team Black
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The next logical step is to try it with tiberium, just to be sure

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Zero18
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just did it with tiberium on the map, no luck Crying or Very sad - although, I'm not using it on one of my mod, but I probably would want to use it on other map just for learning and testing.

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Bittah Commander
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Did you also add a trigger to create the team?

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Ixith
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

from what he's shown off...no he has not created the trigger to create the team that would make the harvester move. just one to disband the team when the refinery is destroyed.

new trigger -> Create harvester team
event #8
action #4 (harvester team)
Attach trigger to harvester

might also be wise to make the Groups correspond between Team and Harvester so that there's little chance of confusion when the trigger fires.

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SuperJoe
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What Bittah and Ixith said, you need to have a trigger that creates the team. Also the script is wrong

Zero18 wrote:

1) Move to Waypoint (ID 10)
2) Do this: Guard <-- Needs to be Guard area (timer ticks, 2)
3) Force Facing (2)
4) Do this: Guard <-- Needs to be Guard area (timer ticks, 2)
5) Do this: Area Guard


Forgot in my earlier instructions that the script action is called Guard area, not Guard. Updating them now.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't see his Waypoint 10 on the refinery docking cell either.

For the script it is also enough to have only this
Move to Waypoint XX (the waypoing on the refinery docking cell)
Force Facing 2
Do this: 10 Harvest

The harvester doesn't has to be placed on the map either. Create it via the trigger.
Events: Elapsed Time 2
Action 0: 80 Reinforcement (team) [at waypoint]...
-Teamtype: Harvester Docking teamtype
-Waypoint: XX (the waypoing on the refinery docking cell)

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