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Hunter Seeker ignores Immune=yes?
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ExperimenterChemist
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 14 Mar 2014
Location: Hungary

PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:33 pm    Post subject:  Hunter Seeker ignores Immune=yes?
Subject description: It may be a stupid question from a beginning modder...
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About seven months ago, I accidentally observed that a Hunter Seeker destroyed the deployed Core Defender in the last Nod mission of Firestorm. I became curious, so I saved a game where the only remaining enemy objects were the small CABAL base with the Core (protected with a Firestorm wall) and the southeast Cabal Control Center (I captured the other 2). Then I followed a "load game, fire Hunter Seeker, see the results" sequence while using a screen recording program. The resulting 36:50 video file contained one occasion when HS destroyed the deployed Core Defender. (The sequence was executed 154 times.) Other information (not connected to this thing) obtained from the video could be found in the attached TXT.




(EDIT: The original video file is now 14,2 MB after compression. I could attach it if there are problems with the quality of the YouTube version.)

As far as I know, deployed Core Defender is a building with Immune=yes which should make it invincible (and it usually behaves this way). Because I used TS 2.03+FS without any mods (I started modding 4 months later), I suspect something strange happens here... Does anybody have an idea about what caused this? (I'm sorry if this is something well-known. By using search, I cannot find reportings of the phenomena at this site, but I may did it wrong.)



Some other information.txt
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AlexB
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It ignores Invisible=yes, LegalTarget=no, and Harverster=yes (the latter only if Harvester Truce is on). The Hunter Seeker delivers its damage on its own, that is it may ignore some of the tags.

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Team Black
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Joined: 25 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

wow, that's dedication right there!
The only other way I know to destroy an immune building is by force-firing a C4; you can blow up anything, including laser fence sections.
You can't kill repair huts this way though, which is why on my map Safe Haven, I gave my light towers BridgeRepairHut=yes just incase.

I'm curious to test if a hunterseeker would destroy something with BridgeRepairHut=yes in it. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't

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ExperimenterChemist
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Joined: 14 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you for the fast answers! I'm quite surprised that HS is so special.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very interesting indeed.
I wonder if that can be used for some kind of additional armor type.
Giving certain buildings Immune=yes while several units have special HS logic to still be able to damage those immune buildings.

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AlexB
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

BridgeRepairHut=yes and Immune=yes combined makes a building truly indestructible. Immune=yes can be overridden in certain logics, and BridgeRepairHut=yes alone just offers the bridge repair option and maybe becoming untargetable by normal means, but it's not completely immune to everything.

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Team Black
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oh yeah, I forgot if trains can run over Immune=yes

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ExperimenterChemist
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I added this information about Hunter-Seeker to C&C Wikipedia, citing this topic.

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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What happens if an IsTrain VehicleType tries to run over a BuildingType with Immune and BridgeRepairHut set?

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Team Black
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Odyssey features non-overlay track tiles, perfect for this experiment..

-I gave the mammoth tank IsTrain=yes. Neither it, or the train would go across the repair hut, even when given a force move command.
-When the 4tnk was ordered to crush the train, it went on the same tile but didn't crush it.
-However, the train crushed the mammoth tank just fine when ordered.

yay.



train repair hut.png
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 Viewed:  9060 Time(s)

train repair hut.png



4tnk train.png
 Description:
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 Viewed:  9060 Time(s)

4tnk train.png



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ExperimenterChemist
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

IsTrain=yes gave me an April Fools' Day idea. Unfortunately, I had to write an important test today, so I ran out ot time a bit. Nevertheless, I hope my sense of humour is compatible with yours. (Better to watch it at YouTube then here.)





Other ideas for April 1st:
-change Ghost Stalker's icon to a picture from Rambo (for example, resize this or the top part of this one and add some tiberium crystals) and change his name to XXIst century Rambo (maybe he should also get Umagon's weapon as secondary against infantry)
-change Cyborg Commando's icon to a picture from Terminator movies (for example, resize this) and rename him Terminator
-change Disc Thrower's icon to a resized discus thrower statue image such as this, and photoshop an army uniform into it

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Atomic_Noodles
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looks like a convincing way to give Omnicrushing Ability to Vehicles.

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Aro
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Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Atomic_Noodles wrote:
Looks like a convincing way to give Omnicrushing Ability to Vehicles.


Nah, IsTrain crushes buildings as well as vehicles, so once your unit of doom has finished bbuilding,  your War Factory will blow up.

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Team Black
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I guess there's workarounds like FreeUnit, or making the war factory 2x2.
I'm pretty sure the IsTrain=yes will take damage for everything it crushes unless it's Immune=yes. You could probably counterbalance this by making it SelfHealing=yes

BTW, anyone remember my first voxel? #Tongue


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Graion Dilach
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aro wrote:
Nah, IsTrain crushes buildings as well as vehicles, so once your unit of doom has finished bbuilding,  your War Factory will blow up.


WeaponsFactory=no.

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Aro
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Joined: 10 Sep 2006

PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Graion Dilach wrote:
Aro wrote:
Nah, IsTrain crushes buildings as well as vehicles, so once your unit of doom has finished bbuilding,  your War Factory will blow up.


WeaponsFactory=no.


That's bizarre, I had no idea.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Would be nice if you could restrict the created unit to be spawned only on one single cell and not on any free cell around the building when using WeaponsFactory=no.

Then 3x3Refinery would be a good candidate to let units being spawned on that free cell in the foundation.

But having no door anim with WeaponsFactory=no and the unit just pop up out of thin air isn't very nice too.

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Crimsonum
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It would still be a pretty bad idea because the unit would, as far as I know, ignore all friendly objects when pathfinding and simply roll through them.

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Team Black
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In This topic, we found that a unit spawns predictably at the NE cell of a 2x2 building, and can be used for producing trains safely


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Chordeiles
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A vehicle with this logic (isTrain=yes) seems like a fun idea for a map hazard. After a certain counter ticks down to zero, spawn it (or undeploy it with a trigger) in the middle of the map and have it run loose on all the known base spawn locations. Would be fun for "survival" maps.

Just thinking out loud...

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ExperimenterChemist
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe Eradicator Hexapod would be a better choice as doomsday unit. Very Happy
Team Black wrote:
I'm pretty sure the IsTrain=yes will take damage for everything it crushes unless it's Immune=yes.

It seems that it takes damage even with Immune=yes. Interestingly, when I simply gave HMEC IsTrain=yes, it neither crushed anything (including the the War Factory), nor behaved the same way as a normal HMEC. When a civilian building was on the path line, the modified HMEC stopped before the building, destroyed it with railgun, then continued to move towards its target.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XGTHe6h5rw& (in the April Fools' Day video, the fake Mammoth also had Immune=yes)

Another strange thing: it sometimes goes through buildings and units instead of crushing them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tLg-7Sskkc& (collection from the April Fools' Day video)

Finally, I thought it should be interesting what happens when two IsTrain=yes units try to crush. Which one will survive? Below are two images.



Two IsTrain=yes units crash.gif
 Description:
 Filesize:  1.34 MB
 Viewed:  8773 Time(s)

Two IsTrain=yes units crash.gif



Two IsTrain=yes units.gif
 Description:
 Filesize:  3.92 MB
 Viewed:  8773 Time(s)

Two IsTrain=yes units.gif



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Lin Kuei Ominae
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Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ExperimenterChemist wrote:
When a civilian building was on the path line, the modified HMEC stopped before the building, destroyed it with railgun, then continued to move towards its target.

Change the MovementZone. The pathfinder using your set movementzone simply calculated that the building was impassable, so it stopped and attacked it.
If you use MovementZone=Fly, it should see everything as passable and simply run through it.

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ExperimenterChemist
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MovementZone=Fly did not solve the problem. The modified HMEC still stops before the building, railguns it, the continues moving instead of going around the building. I will try effects of IsTrain=yes on some locomotor-movementzone combinations later. With Locomotor={55D141B8-DB94-11d1-AC98-006008055BB5} and MovementZone=Destroyer (HMEC) or Fly the effect seems to be clear. Codes in the description of the video.



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Lin Kuei Ominae
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Try also SpeedType=Winged. This is the value used by default by aircrafttypes. This should make the unit think every terrain is passable (even cliffs and buildings).

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Nordos
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lin Kuei Ominae wrote:
Try also SpeedType=Winged. This is the value used by default by aircrafttypes. This should make the unit think every terrain is passable (even cliffs and buildings).

Wow, that I see LKO posting a wrong infirmation!!11 #Tongue

SpeedType=Winged is by definition =0% on every terrain (though that can be changed. did that myself).
Units with SpeedType Winged shouldn't leave the WF (if it's a freeUnit, it shouldn't spawn altogether and refund your money)

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not infallible and i haven't tested this.
But are you sure?
Quote:
; Float = % of full speed for ships [0 means impassable] (def=100)

winged is not listed in rules.ini, but according to the comment, default is always 100% when not explicitly set. Winged is used by aircraft by default and they have everything passable.

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Nordos
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes.
http://ppmsite.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32090
SuperJoe has already made use of the 'Winged' SpeedType.
I personally began to experiment a bit on it, changing the values of Winged in the [land] types. They were now able to move.

I changed the SpeedType=Random [or any custom SpeedType for that matter].
When I tested it before, it would work just like Winged did. I did some testings today, though, and it seems that it actually is different then Winged in some regards.
The most important one was, that when it is Winged, and undeploys on pavement, it would disappear (and give you money), while with a custom SpeedType it would still be there (undeploy it on clear, though, would result into diasppearing just like winged)
I gave the BaseUnit Winged. The game would always crash.
I gave the BaseUnit a custom SpeedType. The Spawninglocation is Pavement. It now doeesn't crash, but only when the UnitCount is set to 10! (Tested in TI)

It really is strange. I request some research on that topic Very Happy



EDIT: Neither Infantry nor Aircraft use SpeedTypes, as far as I can see. For Aircraft I am sure that this is the case either way, yet I have no idea what's up with infantry. Changing it's SpeedType to winged or custom didn't change their behaviour, which leads me to the belief, that it is hardcoded to be always using 'foot'

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Infantry is indeed hardcoded to use Foot only. Came to this result while bugfixing DTAs trains, which disconnect from random moving infantry and visceroids.
However, civilians with their random movement do use the SpeedType for finding suitable neighbor cells for their next random move. Thus you can give them a SpeedType which forbids civilians to walk on railroads and this way prevent that the random moving civilians disconnect trains.

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