balance weap range?

Exley · Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:17 pm Post subject: balance weap range?

I have a problem with weapon range on slow units (like big robots and MMK 2)

Range = max weap range, but since these units are slow
they usually can't kill faster units, if lucky they come into range and prepare to fire but can't so they continue to chase...

and MinimumRange only works if Range exists on weapon, so cannot be used
stand alone

so how to fix this.. or balance this thing, as I don't want to make my "epic units" fast -_-

???

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OmegaBolt · Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:56 pm Post subject:

Surely the point of slow big powerful units is that they ARE vulnerable to fast attacks, otherwise what is their weakness? Also heavily armoured heavy damage units often have low range so that they can be countered at all. They have to creep into close range but once they do the enemy is toast.

Though honestly I don't understand your problem at all.

Exley · Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:21 pm Post subject:

take this scenario

AI builds 4 epic units
and usually they chase enemy harvesters
sure harv is faster but it stops to harvest shit

but along the way come other enemy units
something like buggy, or hover mlrs bla bla

they shoot 1 ammo and run

now on map like Tib garden redux where all action is in circled
this becomes problem

Ai and human don't always stop to fight no matter how weak unit is
they toy often and run

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Lin Kuei Ominae · Seth **Joined**: 16 Aug 2006 **Location**: Germany

I don't see the problem either.
Isn't that the purpose of using tactics? Combine units to even out disadvantages of one unit with the strength of another.
To have one big powerful unit that can fight everything would be unbalanced.

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^Rampastein · Rampastring **Joined**: 11 Oct 2008 **Location**: Gensokyo

Exley wrote:

they toy often and run

To me that sounds like good micromanaging instead of a balance issue.

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Exley · Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject:

LKO its not about unit that can fight everything
but that unit reaches range but when it needs to fire
it gets interupted #Tongue

dunno how to describe it different #Tongue

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ApolloTD · Commander **Joined**: 19 Nov 2003

What he means is that MMK2 for example has to keep turning to try face the target to take shot at it but since target unit keeps circling/moving around, MMK2 is unable to take shots at it or destroy it since its too slow to keep up with its target facing.

This is more of a issue when units don't have turrets and thus whole body has to turn.

Only improvement is to increase its rate of turning else nothing can be done as this ain't RA2 where some weapons can be omnifire like missiles so for example mmk2 won't have to face its target with missiles to fire...
Plus RA2 allows independant firing on the move without being commanded to for making it work better too as else it must stop movement to open fire.
Actual railguns limit makes sense as MMK2 for one is not designed to handle unit swarms and is rather a base sieger or heavy armor destroyer.

Lin Kuei Ominae · Seth **Joined**: 16 Aug 2006 **Location**: Germany

ROT>0 weapons usually have a wider firing arc (about +-25°) than ROT=0 weapons.
see how the first missile is shot early before directly facing the target and in a slightly off direction

MMKII firing in a wide arc

here the old tibweb topic with those weird missiles

Since these are a result of ROT being bigger than 0, it might be worth a test giving the MMKII railguns instead of a ROT=0 Invisible projectile a ROT=1 special projectile. Then the railguns should have this wider firing arc as well.

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Exley · Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 9:55 pm Post subject:

mmm those are nice missiles, are they from "TI" ?

as for issue, its not only about face turning but whole chase scenario

maybe correct question supposed to be
is there a way that unit 1st considers MinimumRange as primary
and then has space to fire up normal Range

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Bittah Commander · Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 10:11 pm Post subject:

The only thing MinimumRange does is preventing a weapon from firing when a a target is closer than the specified MinimumRange value.

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dodgevipergts · Chem Warrior **Joined**: 31 Jan 2011

Exley wrote:

mmm those are nice missiles, are they from "TI" ?

No there in the vanilla game, there called MISSILE.

Exley · Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 11:04 pm Post subject:

Bittah Commander wrote:

The only thing MinimumRange does is preventing a weapon from firing when a a target is closer than the specified MinimumRange value.

yea I know, just wondered if it was possible #Tongue

dodgevipergts wrote:

No there in the vanilla game, there called MISSILE.

memory lapse #Tongue

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E1 Elite · General **Joined**: 28 May 2013

It is confusing because you are combining ability, target acquisition and response in one question.

Ideally you expect bulky unit to have short sight with large range. Can change the range values.
MinimumRange would only make it worse.

If a unit acquires a target that doesn't engage in battle like harvesters going back for dump
or planes returning after finishing ammo, it keeps chasing.

Unit will stop chasing when it relinquishes its target. If the unit is in area guard mode or
you stop them manually or it picks up a different target etc. will help them do that.

Usually the bulky units are slow on turn and move but have powerful weapons. Still it will
take on only one unit at a time. Weapons can be made to affect nearby units also.

Try these kind of changes:
- Increase ROT on the unit by steps of 1 until it looks bad. HMEC ROT=3 in original.
- Fearless=yes on either parties.
- On the weapon - increase Speed, Range, reduce Arm, ROF
- remove Charges=yes if it is there

Mig Eater · Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 7:32 am Post subject:

The game needs a MaxRange= tag, so then we can use Range= as the middle/optimum range setting giving targeting some tolerance ether way.

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Lin Kuei Ominae · Seth **Joined**: 16 Aug 2006 **Location**: Germany

Mig Eater wrote:

The game needs a MaxRange= tag, so then we can use Range= as the middle/optimum range setting giving targeting some tolerance ether way.

Buildings have that
GuardRange

e.g.
GuardRange=7 ;on the building
Range=10 ;on the weapon

The building won't start firing until a unit is closer than 7 cells (due to GuardRange) but can keep firing on the retreating unit even until it is 10 cells away.

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Graion Dilach · Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 10:35 am Post subject:

GuardRange is a global TechnoType flag, it works on all.

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Lin Kuei Ominae · Seth **Joined**: 16 Aug 2006 **Location**: Germany

Graion Dilach wrote:

GuardRange is a global TechnoType flag, it works on all.

I know, but on units, this means the unit will automatically move towards and engage a target.
It's like a constant area guard mode where you can't have a simple guard mode anymore.

Though it might indeed work in such a case where the GuardRange is lower than the weapon Range.
Especially since by default units in TS follow stupid the first target they have found in range. It needs to be tested if it really improves things on units to use the key with a shorter range.

So far i only found it reliable working on buildings used in this way.

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E1 Elite · General **Joined**: 28 May 2013

4 epic units vs harvester looks like attack harvester AI script with ToProtect in action. Base def teams
come to protect harvester and can disable them by removing ToProtect on [Harv].

Explore Aggressive/Suicide/AvoidThreats in ai.ini also.