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Additional Feedback and questions
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Vulture
AA Infantry


Joined: 08 Jan 2011

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:34 pm    Post subject:  Additional Feedback and questions
Subject description: The things I noticed after 0.40 came around.
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0.40 came around a while ago, a few patches have been done since and I have done a good number of battles in Skirmish versus the AI.

- Notes: There are a few tilebugs scattered about in Super Bridgehead Redux map, most notably one on one of the elevated Tiberium Vinefera platforms on the right side of the map. One of the ramps leading to it is bugged. If I remember correctly, there's one near a ramp on the left bottom of the map as well.

- We need more different civilians (and maybe a few armed ones?); seeing the same ones repeatedly on a large map feels a bit boring. Especially considering there is only one female.

- Where are the Forgotten? Have we forgotten all about them? :p
Shoot me for the lame and obvious pun.

- GDI has no way to capture opposing vehicles, unlike Nod with the Machinist. A design choice? Or could GDI use a dedicated infantry unit to do so (obviously not sharing roles with the Engineer like Nod does)?

- A veteran Kazuar got stuck on a speed crate again, this time when I wanted to see if the AI actually moves its vehicle around in Survivor.
- Talking about the AI in Survivor, what the hell is it doing other than lounging about?
Are improvements planned or will it be as it is; online multiplayer only?

- Literally all maps have Tiberium. Are there no places on this world anymore without it? Even Super Bridgehead Redux - a relatively clean zone otherwise - has enough to never have problems with money.

- Civilians play little-to-no role in the GDI campaign, while Nod gets to destroy a city in the first mission right away... wouldn't there be some sort of rescue mission for GDI somewhere?

- All GDI missions appear to have a major strategic influence on the campaign, except Mission 6 (considering you are destroying just a supply base and the world is a big place). A few more tactical missions could be interesting and added without interfering with the storyline much.

- Wouldn't GDI steal some technology from Nod they capture over time? I captured a ton of Nod vehicles and structures throughout various missions... in the end you expect GDI to scavenge some technology here and there. The reverse is probably also true.

- Even if a bit boring and similar to Nod Cyborgs, I think GDI needs an Exoskeleton infantry for storyline purposes, especially considering they work together with GloboTech. It is just too obvious (maybe with a build limit?). More for storyline reasons than anything else considering the glaring flaw of Marauders (their anti-infantry weapon is bad and GDI's staff would probably attempt to fix that ASAP in a war!). One infantry unit based on the Zone Raider (from Kane's Wrath) could probably work, though it'd need the aforementioned buildlimit in Skirmish as it outclasses the Marauder otherwise (though probably lest cost-efficient versus vehicles).

- The GDI storyline is a doozy. As I replay the later GDI missions it becomes painfully obvious. I think I mentioned this in my comments about the GDI campaign thread before as well.

Also:
I played the new GDI mission 6 as well, and I really like it. The map is beautiful. It is less of a frustration than the old one (no huge number of those annoying mines) and the Howitzers really add some difficulty for those who are unaware - but it sadly requires mostly knowledge about the mission, no tactical manouvers. Once I knew about the turrets in the river and the Howitzers, I put one and one together and the second try was a cakewalk.
The Repair Depot is a nice addition to the build tree - I no longer end up with those heavily damaged vehicles I can't do jack with, and instead I can at least repair them.
The first part is really hard (stupid laser turret) if your Scatterpacks take too much damage in the intial rush.
The second part, after blowing the bridge, is easy once you know about the Howitzers and destroying the powerplants to shut down the Nod Gun Turrets.
The third part of the mission (securing the island of the GDI supply base) is absolutely torn apart by Scatterpacks, assisted by a few Goliaths and a few snipers to defend your base)
A probe with ten Hovercrafts or so to draw out the AI tank counterattack then can follow up immidiately (enter through the backdoor of the base) - which you can annihilate with a group of Jumpjets easily.
Once this is done, proceed to run a suicide run with 20-ish Goliaths to destroy the Construction Yard, Barracks and War Factories of the AIs main base, then kill as many vehicles as possible. After that, the elite Scatterpacks you got from clearing your island can be sent to the remnants of the base (there shouldn't be any vehicles left).

All things considered, I think this mission is pretty good, but after you failed once this mission is easy; there is little to keep you on your toes later on (except the tank strike). The meteor cult thing is kept which is pretty funny. Also those visceroids... you're better off leaving that alone early on.

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ArchlordII
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 04 May 2015
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Vulture wrote:
- We need more different civilians (and maybe a few armed ones?); seeing the same ones repeatedly on a large map feels a bit boring. Especially considering there is only one female.


There are actually two females (the blond and Umagon). Technicians are used as armed civilians in Omicron City.

Vulture wrote:
- Where are the Forgotten? Have we forgotten all about them?


There are a lot of forgotten in Heart of Darkness.

Vulture wrote:
- GDI has no way to capture opposing vehicles, unlike Nod with the Machinist. A design choice? Or could GDI use a dedicated infantry unit to do so (obviously not sharing roles with the Engineer like Nod does)?


Adding a vehicle thief to GDI would make both sides too similar.

Vulture wrote:
- Literally all maps have Tiberium. Are there no places on this world anymore without it? Even Super Bridgehead Redux - a relatively clean zone otherwise - has enough to never have problems with money.


Tiberium is the only way to collect money. Therefore it must be on every map. However, some low tiberium maps could be strategically interesting.

Vulture wrote:
- Even if a bit boring and similar to Nod Cyborgs, I think GDI needs an Exoskeleton infantry for storyline purposes, especially considering they work together with GloboTech. It is just too obvious (maybe with a build limit?). More for storyline reasons than anything else considering the glaring flaw of Marauders (their anti-infantry weapon is bad and GDI's staff would probably attempt to fix that ASAP in a war!). One infantry unit based on the Zone Raider (from Kane's Wrath) could probably work, though it'd need the aforementioned buildlimit in Skirmish as it outclasses the Marauder otherwise (though probably lest cost-efficient versus vehicles).


GDI's and Nod's infantry are pretty well balanced; cyborgs balance out medics and snipers.  Another infantry unit would destroy the balance.

Edit: I believe the marauder is also for use against cyborgs as they are fast enough to dodge web grenades and have missiles which are good against armor.  As for storyline purposes, GDI's Railgun Commando has an exo-suit courtesy of Globotech.

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Vulture
AA Infantry


Joined: 08 Jan 2011

PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ArchlordII wrote:

There are actually two females (the blond and Umagon). Technicians are used as armed civilians in Omicron City.

Umagon is absent in many maps though, usually only the blonde is used. Also, does Tiberium make people infertile? (joke, I understand the reason there are no children in any C&C game)
And Omicron City is just one map ... there are a few more than just one.

Quote:

There are a lot of forgotten in Heart of Darkness.

True. I meant in the Storyline.

Quote:

Adding a vehicle thief to GDI would make both sides too similar.

Which is why it should be a dedicated unit, possibly Tier 2 as well.

Quote:

Tiberium is the only way to collect money. Therefore it must be on every map. However, some low tiberium maps could be strategically interesting.

Crates, or a coded steady cashflow could work too. Or a map that heavily relies on predeployed units.


Quote:

GDI's and Nod's infantry are pretty well balanced; cyborgs balance out medics and snipers.  Another infantry unit would destroy the balance.

Edit: I believe the marauder is also for use against cyborgs as they are fast enough to dodge web grenades and have missiles which are good against armor.  As for storyline purposes, GDI's Railgun Commando has an exo-suit courtesy of Globotech.

In theory, you can always add an extra unit without destroying the balance. The suggestion is more a storyline unit that is a direct improvement upon the Marauder that adresses its most direct flaw (weak anti-infantry weapon), which cannot be built in Skirmish or only with a buildlimit. Doesn't even have to use a new SHP even, it could get away with the Jumpjet/Marauder sprite as well, except maybe a bigger gun.

There are a few more things like this, probably for Nod as well. In a prolonged war; or even just after the first few battles, it is only logical a faction decides to improve upon the basic flaws of their units.

Let's look at the Leopard 2 for example; after every war it is improved upon, and now - thirty-five years after its introduction - numerous versions of it circle around. Urban modification kit with shorter barrel and more side- and rear armor, the A7 version with a gun pod on top allowing you to put a ton of different secondary weapons on it (possibly combined with the urban kit), a version with a 145mm main cannon, and so on.
That would happen in a Tiberium War too. Note to TI team: I don't mean you need to go and make 5-6 versions of the Goliath and Eclipse. Too much effort and it is not worth it ^.

Tanks - literally all of them - have a machinegun on top with a reason, too. In World War II a few thanks lacked it - but the combat experiences against infantry were so bad no one ever even thought of building a tank without MG on top again.

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ArchlordII
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 04 May 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Vulture wrote:
Quote:

Adding a vehicle thief to GDI would make both sides too similar.

Which is why it should be a dedicated unit, possibly Tier 2 as well.

It would have the same affect either way.

Vulture wrote:
Quote:

Tiberium is the only way to collect money. Therefore it must be on every map. However, some low tiberium maps could be strategically interesting.

Crates, or a coded steady cashflow could work too. Or a map that heavily relies on predeployed units.

That's possible, but harvesters and refineries would have to be removed so that it would not be necessary to build a useless refinery just to get to the other structures. And, IMO that would remove an important aspect of gameplay.


Vulture wrote:
Quote:

GDI's and Nod's infantry are pretty well balanced; cyborgs balance out medics and snipers.  Another infantry unit would destroy the balance.

Edit: I believe the marauder is also for use against cyborgs as they are fast enough to dodge web grenades and have missiles which are good against armor.  As for storyline purposes, GDI's Railgun Commando has an exo-suit courtesy of Globotech.

In theory, you can always add an extra unit without destroying the balance. The suggestion is more a storyline unit that is a direct improvement upon the Marauder that adresses its most direct flaw (weak anti-infantry weapon), which cannot be built in Skirmish or only with a buildlimit. Doesn't even have to use a new SHP even, it could get away with the Jumpjet/Marauder sprite as well, except maybe a bigger gun.

The Marauder is not meant to fight infantry, that's what snipers are for but, I see what you mean. As for fixing flaws, since when has GDI been interested in fixing anything other than elections? Laughing

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Lin Kuei Ominae
Seth


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Vulture wrote:
Quote:

Tiberium is the only way to collect money. Therefore it must be on every map. However, some low tiberium maps could be strategically interesting.

Crates, or a coded steady cashflow could work too. Or a map that heavily relies on predeployed units.

The map editor is included. Feel free to experiment with it. Wink
Though you'll notice that the old TS engine has a several limitations, which often make things impossible to do or with too many drawbacks.
e.g.
crates
-you could make a map which gives the player only money from them, but the given money is inconsistent/random. Money=set amount + random value between 0 and 1000
Thus there is a high chance of unbalancing when one player has more luck to get more money out of the crates
-you can't spawn/create crates during a match, without raising the crate minimum (e.g. a triggered truck delivering a crate would add each time one crate to the map and soon you have hundreds of random crates)

coded steady cashflow
-impossible. There is no trigger and no logic in the TS engine to do this.
The only exception is an oil derrick workaround, but that only ends in turtle games with players turtling around the few oil derricks.
Though it could indeed be a nice map idea if done well.

low tiberium maps
-are indeed possible and I would also like to see a few of these. Though mapping takes time and it might be a good idea to add a special MP option "low resources" which changes an existing map into a low resource version

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Vulture
AA Infantry


Joined: 08 Jan 2011

PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ArchlordII wrote:
Vulture wrote:
Quote:

Adding a vehicle thief to GDI would make both sides too similar.

Which is why it should be a dedicated unit, possibly Tier 2 as well.

It would have the same affect either way.

I see where you are coming from. It is a suggestion that came to me as I played throughout the GDI campaign, where the sequence of capturing a Nod Barracks and thén capture Nod vehicles is not uncommon. GDI mission 6 (revamped) lends itself very well for this, as does GDI mission 9.

ArchlordII wrote:

Quote:

Tiberium is the only way to collect money. Therefore it must be on every map. However, some low tiberium maps could be strategically interesting.

Crates, or a coded steady cashflow could work too. Or a map that heavily relies on predeployed units.

That's possible, but harvesters and refineries would have to be removed so that it would not be necessary to build a useless refinery just to get to the other structures. And, IMO that would remove an important aspect of gameplay.[/quote]
True. It would have a far different feel, but it would feel also much more realistic because every unit counts. In the storyline, I prefer predeployed over base building of any kind because of this.
In Skirmish, restricted resources would be better. As LKO stated, a low-resource option in which some Tiberium is either removed or just worth a whole deal less would be interesting enough.

ArchlordII wrote:

Vulture wrote:
Quote:

GDI's and Nod's infantry are pretty well balanced; cyborgs balance out medics and snipers.  Another infantry unit would destroy the balance.

Edit: I believe the marauder is also for use against cyborgs as they are fast enough to dodge web grenades and have missiles which are good against armor.  As for storyline purposes, GDI's Railgun Commando has an exo-suit courtesy of Globotech.

In theory, you can always add an extra unit without destroying the balance. The suggestion is more a storyline unit that is a direct improvement upon the Marauder that adresses its most direct flaw (weak anti-infantry weapon), which cannot be built in Skirmish or only with a buildlimit. Doesn't even have to use a new SHP even, it could get away with the Jumpjet/Marauder sprite as well, except maybe a bigger gun.

The Marauder is not meant to fight infantry, that's what snipers are for but, I see what you mean. As for fixing flaws, since when has GDI been interested in fixing anything other than elections? Laughing

*snickers*

And yes, it's true that Marauder isn't meant to fight Infantry but that is why it would be improved upon.

Every faction or side is interested in 'winning' a war and not fixing flaws (or not improving upon strengths) will always result into a country's demise. Japan in World War II is a notable example as their lack of technological advancements and attempts to cover up flaws ended with things like the infamous "Great Mariana's Turkey Shoot".
Not that you can win a war but that is a whole different and fairly irrelevant discussion (though reflecting upon that in the storyline would be nice, though that means it needs to be far more gritty.

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ApolloTD
Commander


Joined: 19 Nov 2003

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Vulture wrote:

And yes, it's true that Marauder isn't meant to fight Infantry but that is why it would be improved upon.

Every faction or side is interested in 'winning' a war and not fixing flaws (or not improving upon strengths) will always result into a country's demise. Japan in World War II is a notable example as their lack of technological advancements and attempts to cover up flaws ended with things like the infamous "Great Mariana's Turkey Shoot".
Not that you can win a war but that is a whole different and fairly irrelevant discussion (though reflecting upon that in the storyline would be nice, though that means it needs to be far more gritty.


This would be long debate as realism doesn't make good gameplay, there is no point buffing anti-infantry abilities of Marauder as it is not supposed to be do it all infantry and hell if we get all realistic, single shot of rocket/missile should splatter any infantry to pieces not to talk of tank shells and people would whine then how useless infantry are...

Marauder is nothing but a GDI version of Nod rocket infantry but far more useful than the original miserable jumpjet infantry using gun.

TI like most of C&C games is based on principle of mix'n'match force so  that there are drawbacks to singular unit uses, they may do okayish or poorly vs unintended targets so good mixer is always having better advantage compared to single minded tank rusher/spammer.

Of course if you routinely kill AI with tank spam or else use singular unit massing, it hardly relates to going vs players that know what they are doing as AI is borderline dumb.

Only consideration is apply such 'buff' ideas into elite weapons potentially at best.

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Vulture
AA Infantry


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ApolloTD wrote:
Vulture wrote:

And yes, it's true that Marauder isn't meant to fight Infantry but that is why it would be improved upon.

Every faction or side is interested in 'winning' a war and not fixing flaws (or not improving upon strengths) will always result into a country's demise. Japan in World War II is a notable example as their lack of technological advancements and attempts to cover up flaws ended with things like the infamous "Great Mariana's Turkey Shoot".
Not that you can win a war but that is a whole different and fairly irrelevant discussion (though reflecting upon that in the storyline would be nice, though that means it needs to be far more gritty.


This would be long debate as realism doesn't make good gameplay, there is no point buffing anti-infantry abilities of Marauder as it is not supposed to be do it all infantry and hell if we get all realistic, single shot of rocket/missile should splatter any infantry to pieces not to talk of tank shells and people would whine then how useless infantry are...

Agreed. Making things realistic sure has a ton of issues (just only think of the work involved making several dozen vehicle variants, to name one, not to mention countless gameplay issues, a cluttered buildlist with redundant units and there is sure to be one or two variants that outclass a ton of stuff).
About the tank round/rocket, a tank round kills a soldier in one hit... but hitting that soldier with such a big gun is pretty troublesome. Hell, even a machinegun has trouble hitting infantry - an US research found out that for every enemy soldier killed or captured [during the Iraq war], 15000 bullets were spent.

Quote:

Marauder is nothing but a GDI version of Nod rocket infantry but far more useful than the original miserable jumpjet infantry using gun.

Agreed. I never said it wasn't.

Quote:

TI like most of C&C games is based on principle of mix'n'match force so  that there are drawbacks to singular unit uses, they may do okayish or poorly vs unintended targets so good mixer is always having better advantage compared to single minded tank rusher/spammer.

Agreed for any and all multiplayer purposes.

Quote:

Only consideration is apply such 'buff' ideas into elite weapons potentially at best.
Probably the safest possibility, but I never suggested to change the current Marauder for the aforementioned reasons. I too, believe that the Marauder is balanced ingame.

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ArchlordII
Vehicle Drone


Joined: 04 May 2015
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Vulture wrote:

ArchlordII wrote:

Vulture wrote:
Quote:

GDI's and Nod's infantry are pretty well balanced; cyborgs balance out medics and snipers.  Another infantry unit would destroy the balance.

Edit: I believe the marauder is also for use against cyborgs as they are fast enough to dodge web grenades and have missiles which are good against armor.  As for storyline purposes, GDI's Railgun Commando has an exo-suit courtesy of Globotech.

In theory, you can always add an extra unit without destroying the balance. The suggestion is more a storyline unit that is a direct improvement upon the Marauder that adresses its most direct flaw (weak anti-infantry weapon), which cannot be built in Skirmish or only with a buildlimit. Doesn't even have to use a new SHP even, it could get away with the Jumpjet/Marauder sprite as well, except maybe a bigger gun.

The Marauder is not meant to fight infantry, that's what snipers are for but, I see what you mean. As for fixing flaws, since when has GDI been interested in fixing anything other than elections? Laughing

*snickers*

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