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RA2 maps compared to TS maps
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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:28 pm    Post subject:  RA2 maps compared to TS maps Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've never done much mapping since Tiberian Sun. I think TS mapping is often very superior to RA2 mapping - the maps are larger and have far larger open areas for constructing bases, plus more varied areas - for example, there are very few Urban maps in TS (none in vanilla), but many maps have several small settlements on them. RA2 maps have alot of prohibitive terrain and seem to actively discourage building large bases (which may or may not be intentional). Flat areas for building are a rare commodity, there are cliffs all over the place, plus neutral structures and other terrain features that make it hard to build somewhere.

Before I start getting into RA2 mapping:
Why do RA2 maps seem so much smaller and cramped? I know RA2 uses larger cell sizes, did map sizes just stay the same in terms of leptons or whatever, so that there can be fewer cells in a RA2 map than in a TS map? Is it possible to have larger maps in RA2 that are as big as TS maps relative to cell size?

As I've said, very inexperienced in RA2 mapping, I would just like some random advice how to transfer that TS "feel" into a RA2 map and what the key differences are, if anyone has any ideas.

Last edited by Millennium on Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Graion Dilach
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Joined: 22 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'd call this difference as "TS maps being pale", it's not a difference between engine, it's a just a different design.

You can even convert TS maps to RA2 if you so desire.

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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, I will try it out to see how it plays!
And yes, it is somewhat pale, but seeing how the game handles building (eg can't build on sloped terrain), it just plays better imo. Plus RA2 doesn't allow terrain deforming (yet?), otherwise you could bulldoze some extra buildspace.

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RP
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Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Location: Mapping God Heaven

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It mostly comes down to how you create a map.
If we're talking official maps, yes, TS maps are usually larger and spacious.
However, Red Alert 2 and Yuri's Revenge are far more surperior when it comes to dynamics. There's a lot more to do with triggers etc.

But as said, it mostly comes down on how you create a map, a spacious map may make one forget its lack of dynamics and vice versa.

EDIT: Red Alert 2 does not support deforming. It never will, nor will Yuri's Revenge, even with Ares AFAIK.
I don't see how building in TS is different from RA2...

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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I didn't mean the building mechanics were different, just that in RA2, the restrictions matter more. TS maps accomodated for the building mechanic of the game, while in RA2 you run into the limitations more obviously.

I will see, maybe I can combine a spacious map with interesting triggers... I don't know. Still at the very beginning with RA2 mapping.

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G-E
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Joined: 09 Feb 2015

PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know I've been making maps since RA1, and I've made maps for other games like TA:kingdoms (very similar to ra1 style fake elevations), and while the scale of those maps was rather enormous compared to what I do for RA2, I don't feel my new maps are cramped.

For example in Kingdoms, or Warcraft, units moved rather slowly across their cells compared to RA1, it made the games feel like you're always waiting for the things to happen. In RA2 the speeds of units and the acceleration effects give you a completely different sense of time, which affects your sense of scale.

I remember the majority of my RA1 maps were over 100x100 sized, mostly 120-150 on one axis, and I even made a few in the 200's. Conversely, my RA2 maps for the same number of players rarely exceeds 100x100, and I never get the impression that they are "too small".

When I make new maps larger than that, I make large impassable regions to cut down the maps useable space, because it really starts to feel too spacious. I posted a rendering of Meandering in my thread, which feels really big, has tons of forest, and it's only 115x115 or so.

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RP
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Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Location: Mapping God Heaven

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What people tend to forget is that in-game you usually have shroud.
When I look at renders from the original missions, they look so empty, but when you play them, they don't.
The reason you don't see them as small is probably because of the cell size.

So I believe it really comes down to (again) the usage of dynamics within a scenario.

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Lin Kuei Ominae
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Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Another reason could be the much bigger buildings in RA2.
Not only is the cell size 25% bigger, buildings also have bigger foundations.

Conyard: 3x3 in TS, 4x4 in RA2
Warfactory: 4x3 TS, 5x3 RA2

With the basic buildings being that much bigger, it's harder to find a free spot big enough to place them.

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Millennium
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Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Location: Osaka (JP)/Hong Kong/Germany

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

True.
And I also realized, RA2 has rubble, so if you "remove" all those civ buildings, it does not give you more building space either.

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OmegaBolt
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Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Location: York, England

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've honestly never thought the RA2 maps have less space... if anything there are a lot of big open spaces for all the boring rhino tank spam.

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